The Pebble Blog : Bloggers go wild on Ballot Measure 4, Pebble

The Pebble Blog

The gigantic Pebble copper and gold prospect in Southwest Alaska is one of the touchiest topics in Alaska today.

In this blog, I'll track news that is significant or interesting about the Pebble project. I'll also try to generate discussion and information sharing about some of the claims and counterclaims about the project, and mining in general.

Please keep your comments courteous and on topic. If you violate the ADN comment policy, your posts will be deleted.

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About Elizabeth Bluemink ebluemink@adn.com

I've been writing about mining in Alaska since 2004 and without a doubt, it is one of the most interesting topics that I cover at the Daily News. I've been a newspaper reporter for the past 10 years. In the Deep South, I specialized in reporting about environmental conflicts and pollution cleanups. For two years, I covered commercial fishing, mining and logging in Southeast Alaska. In my current job as a Daily News business reporter, I write about mining, tourism, Native corporations and other businesses.

Bloggers go wild on Ballot Measure 4, Pebble

Posted by Elizabeth Bluemink

Posted: August 18, 2008 - 6:34 pm

Following are a few recent dispatches from the blogosphere.

Jack Caldwell, a mining industry consultant, says we should find out more about the plans for tailings dams at Pebble before voting "Yes" on Measure 4. He even offers a check list of specific questions to ask the company's tailings expert. (Fyi, since June or July, I've been trying to nab a briefing with the Pebble Partnership's tailings expert. He was on leave for a while. Hopefully this will happen soon.)

Andrew Halcro, the bete noire of the Palin Administration, claims NANA Regional Corp. and Teck Cominco executives were strong-armed by unidentified Ballot Measure 4 supporters to take a stand against Pebble. He gives no timeline for these efforts but apparently they weren't successful. I've also been told that Rio Tinto folks, who used to operate the Greens Creek mine and own a roughly 20 percent stake in the Pebble project, were approached in a similar fashion.

I generally try to avoid posting opinion pieces on this blog, but since the following were published as blog posts, here goes: Dermot Cole of the Fairbanks Daily News Miner has posted his ruminations on Measure 4 here and here.

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7 December 26, 2008 - 3:53am | nero6

Thanks

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6 December 7, 2008 - 2:09pm | charlierotario

Bloggers go wild on Ballot Measure 4, Pebble

Yep, bloggers have the right to go wild because the ministry of industry can't really control the blogosphere...
Do you have any idea about what to expect when you quit smoking?
Charlie R
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5 November 10, 2008 - 6:12am | y4yycom

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4 August 19, 2008 - 2:52pm | asrcp9

DNR Provides Their Thoughts on BM4

Please go to this website to read the state's DNR response to BM4.

It's a good read and DNR writes very clearly the full effects of this measure to current and future mines.

http://www.dnr.state.ak.us/opmp/mining/mining_initiatives.htm

3 August 19, 2008 - 7:09am | pmjusa

Bloggers Gone Wild

What really drives us nuts is the misinformation that BM4 promoters repeat over and over, and not just BM4’s promoters. Many others misread the measure and parrot the same misunderstandings. Even some of those who follow the issue closely say misleading things like this from a recent newspaper article: “The law would bar large metal mines from discharging harmful amounts of certain pollutants into drinking water and salmon streams.” A closer read of the initiative reveals that the law would bar discharging “measureable” amounts of pollutants that are harmful. That is an important distinction. Think of it. Scientists measure these pollutants in the parts per billion. According to the initiative’s standards, we would all have to distill our drinking water to just comply with the law. That’s excessive, unrealistic regulation for any purpose.

That even those following the issue seem to do so for entertainment, not as good as T.V., but better than working, is what drives us to distraction.

Save the fish, and the mines. Vote No on 4.

August 19, 2008 - 10:30am | ebluemink

rather, the initiative says...

"releases or discharges a toxic pollutant or pollutants, in a measurable amount that will effect human health or welfare or any stage of the life cycle of salmon ...."

You would be correct if the sentence read: "releases or discharges a toxic pollutant or pollutants in a measurable amount." I hate to bring up English grammar here, but you are ignoring "the restrictive clause" at the end of the sentence, which narrows its meaning.

But forget "The Elements of Style" and your high school English grammar classes. The state regulators at DEC and DNR reject that reading of the initiative :)

September 10, 2008 - 12:42am | pmjusa

Thanks

for that clarification, Elizabeth. I wish it were so simple. If the state regulators at DEC and DNR were the only ones to have interpreted the initiative, then this hullabaloo would have been moot, right? Otherwise why would state regulators have published a website explaining their uncertainty about the results of the initiative, should it have passed? BM 4 was obviously written for interpretation by a judge favorable to environmentalist/preservationist ideology, and enforced by state regulators.

Frank Hanson writes, "Mining continues to suffer from the “sins of the past” despite advances in technology and the enactment of laws that preclude a repetition of outdated, environmentally irresponsible practices. Those of us still engaged in mining must do a better job of communicating; educating the public to look beyond objections based upon antiquated practices and emotion. Our balance of trade suffers by importing natural resources that are available in the USA if we were allowed to extract them."

With the environmentalist propaganda that even now continues in radio and print advertising I’m sure we can expect another initiative. Perhaps it will be confusing and ambiguously written. Perhaps it will be a direct attack on Pebble. Clearly, unless the mining industry can successfully counter the anti-Pebble ads and without legislative changes, environmentalists and others will eventually succeed in using the initiative process to bypass science-based decisions.

September 10, 2008 - 1:28am | pmjusa

In Retrospect

For truly science-free decisions, I suggest a petition that we bloggers dogs' flip coins at Lousacc Library to decide these issues. This would remove any bias or science-based influence from the decision, bypass cumbersome signature gathering, and even be entertaining!

August 19, 2008 - 11:18am | Sockeyemark

PMJ twisting the facts again, no say it isn't so

Like I've said all along, this will not shut down mining. No the sky is not falling. This initiative can pass, mining will continue and Pebble will have a hard time getting off the ground. Yes On 4

August 22, 2008 - 5:49am | Victor67

Yes on Alaska, fish and mining...No on 4

The sky is not falling on Bristol Bay. Most likely, the Pebble will never "get off the ground" under current regulations either.
To subject every other potential mining project in the entire state to the dictates of BM 4 is absurd.
NO on 4

August 22, 2008 - 12:53pm | rfn

That "never get off the ground"

suggests what so many have said all along. Measure 4 is totally unnecessary and is a boon only to lawyers.

Thank you for confirming that!

August 22, 2008 - 1:34pm | Sockeyemark

Great, you can keep mining and Pebble can stay in the court

rooms and I'll keep fishing. It's a win / win and Ballot measure four is good for all. Thanks for confirming that

August 22, 2008 - 8:22pm | rfn

Temporarily.

Then, win or lose on Measure 4, the next move to keep the rivers for the exclusive use of the wealthy lodge owners and their friends will be outlawing all commercial fishing.

Win OR lose.

August 22, 2008 - 10:15pm | Sockeyemark

Your Dreaming,,,,

It's never been fishing against mining, just clean water for Alaskans and leave Pebble in the ground for a 100 years

August 23, 2008 - 11:03am | jcn7vc

Contradictions

You have said multiple time on this blog that fishing cannot survive with mining going on. Now you're flopping?

Clean water my A$$! What will this initiative do to make fish processors comply with water regulations?

August 23, 2008 - 2:15pm | Sockeyemark

You are correct, fishing and Pebble mine don't mix

This is always been about mining the Pebble Prospect, no one is flopping. Maybe you misunderstood is all. I'm not against responsible resource development, but it's pretty obvious that Pebble won't be responsible.
Just as ballot measure 4 has been misunderstood, it's all about Pebble. That is why there is a section 3 in it. Everyone has just got ramped up on the whole deal. This is not about fish processors, sewage disposal, oil production just Pebble.
All my blogs or at least most of them state that I'm against pebble, and that has always been my focus.

August 23, 2008 - 6:43pm | njalo99

......

Pebble discharges will be cleaner than the discharges from the fisherman of BB

August 23, 2008 - 7:25pm | demorgan33

What discharges are you accusing the fishermen of?

We don't dump oil, as much as one drop that creates an oily sheen is subject to fines, fish slime came from the water and couldn't be more natural. If you are bringing up the exemption to a permit required for dumping of ballast water again, that one has been beat to death and explained fully, but here goes again, the permit does not apply to smaller vessels, because we don't carry ballast water and therefore can't dump it.

August 23, 2008 - 9:37pm | rfn

You are forgetting

that if anyone were to dump a gallon of Anchorage tap water into a salmon stream they would be in serious violation of existing clean water regulations. Thousands of people drink that substandard (according to existing rules) water every day but if they put a salmon in a bathtub full of it they'd be hanged for cruelty to fish. Strangely, those folks don't get sick from the substandard water.

If that small boat leaks and it gets bailed out even, with a coffee can, all the oily scum from engine seepage, drips from gas cans, you name it.... gets bailed out with it. Unless, of course, someone on board drinks it and holds out until getting back to shore.

Of course if the boat had no engine and were paddled as fishing boats should be.....

August 23, 2008 - 11:10pm | CingRed

Agreed we need cleaner water in BB

In order to have 'clean water' and 'protect salmon' in region, BB fisherman should have to go back to their roots and fish from sailboats. This will protect our environment and return the laws which were loosened by the Ernest Gruening ("Mr. Alaska") administration in 1951. We should uphold The US Fish & Wildlife regulations that were in place prior to the use of motorboats and ban the use of power engines for fishing. This 'conservation measure' was true then like it is today and and will restore the fishery and ensure our precious water source. If fisherman protest we will see their true colors: greedy, polluters, who rape the environment of its resources, and leave taking their money with them.

August 25, 2008 - 10:16am | PuckFebble

Fair enough

As long as they are using nothing more than a pick and shovel at Pebble. Cing, it plays both ways. I find it troubling that some of the regular posters on here are speaking about a very successful fishery and set of watersheds as if they are disposable.

August 28, 2008 - 9:05pm | njalo99

No one said Bristol Bay was disposable.... It is a viable asset to the state and should keep producing like it always has....... Mining shouldn't change that!!

August 31, 2008 - 11:11pm | Sockeyemark

Shouldn't,could,maybe,,,,it's starting already

Before it was ,no way,will not,,,,,,,now it's shouldn't. But if the dam breaks we'll make it right, maybe....
Pebble WILL have a detrimental affect on the Bristol Bay Fishery, no if ands or buts,,,,not even a shouldn't.

September 2, 2008 - 12:33pm | rfn

Measure 4

was defeated.

Pay attention!

September 4, 2008 - 1:34pm | Sockeyemark

What does Prop 4 have to do with Pebble Mine,

The fight against Pebble will be heading to Washington DC, Sarah in her own wisdom will eventually help the Bristol Bay fishery by her attention she will bring to the rest of the world.....Oh the fight to keep Pebble at Bay ( no pun here) has just started......tune in and PAY ATTENTION......don't act so defeted rfn

September 3, 2008 - 8:02pm | demorgan33

Prop 4 didn't pass

That doesn't mean that this mine will move forward or that the fight to stop it will end.

Pay attention!

August 25, 2008 - 10:44pm | CingRed

Interesting...

I find it troubling that some of the the regular posters on here are speaking about a very successful & growing mining industry and set of regulations as if they are disposable. I don't give a hoot what the intent of the ballot measure is/was when written, for all I know, Gillam & Co. have purposely wrote the initiatives to close down mining in this State, which he is rumored to have told Ramaras.
This is besides the point, because if the ballot measure doesn't use succinct, precise, and clear language it's up to some lawyer to determine how mining should be conducted, which to a lot of environmentalist lawyers might include a pick and shovel or worse.

August 19, 2008 - 11:06am | jcn7vc

Grammar

Effect is a noun, affect is a verb. I hope the initiatives don't read "...amount that will effect..." because then it would prove it is written by a bunch of uneducated goons. ;)

August 19, 2008 - 11:00am | asrcp9

looks like somone else

Looks like somone else forgot their high school English grammar class. You might want to check what you write before you post it. As a reminder, only use "an" before a word that starts with a vowel.

"Fyi, since June or July, I've been trying to nab an briefing with the Pebble Partnership's tailings expert."

And to add a comment on the "measureable amount that will effect human health or welfare or any stage of the life cycle of salmon," I would think that this measureable amount could be variable through different stages of human life, such as a small child would be less able to handle a certain quantity compared to a grown human and the same of salmon. So my question is which level do we go by?

August 19, 2008 - 11:06am | asrcp9

And if you notice in Ballot

And if you notice in Ballot Measure 4, the word "effect" is used incorrectly.

“releases or discharges a toxic pollutant or pollutants, in a measureable amount that will effect human health or welfare or any stage of the life cycle of salmon…”

It should be "affect"

August 19, 2008 - 11:29am | ebluemink

yes

the misuse of the word "effect" in BM4 has been brought up many, many times in many forums.

and yes, quite a lot of bad grammar has appeared on this blog and apparently I'm not immune to it.

the distinction about the quote from BM4 is important, though.

it goes to the question about how it will be implemented.

August 19, 2008 - 11:38am | jcn7vc

Bad Mistake

I agree that using effect instead of affect is a big deal, but it doesn't change the meaning. Differnces in implementation are big however, as you pointed out.

August 19, 2008 - 11:08am | jcn7vc

Really?

Does it really say that, word for word?

August 19, 2008 - 11:26am | asrcp9

yup, check it

yup, check it out...
http://www.elections.alaska.gov/petitions/07wtr3.pdf

page 1 at the bottom

August 19, 2008 - 8:46am | akharvester

Leaving out the facts left and right

PMJUSA - how big in size do those mines have to be that will not be allowed to discharge pollutants into drinking water or salmon streams? Did you leave that essential detail out to be deceptive like those you accuse or is that fact that it only applies to mega mines - 640 acres in size or greater not seem important to you? A closer read of the initiative reveals that the law would bar MINES OF A CERTAIN SIZE THAT ARE BUILT IN THE FUTURE from discharging in drinking water or salmon streams - i.e. no mixing zones. Other states ban the pollution of their clean water and it's time that we Alaskan's, lucky inhabitants of the greatest state in the nation, do the same!

August 19, 2008 - 9:59am | jcn7vc

Some Points

1. 640 acres = 1 sq. mile. It's not that big, in fact most mining operations in the state are over, if not close, to that number. For instance, Red Dog's Main Pit is close to that number, and it is a small mine compared to most. Combine the main pit with the adjacent pits and it exceeds the 640 acres, and that isn't even taking into account the waste storage dump or tailings pond.

2. Other States don't ban the pollution of their clean water; they set levels that must be reached. When you do that, you can take people to court for going over the levels. When you just say that you can't discharge anything that is hazardous to human or salmon life, that is leaving it up to the courts to decide what is hazardous.

3. They other question is: What is a salmon stream? Red Dog started operating while there was no salmon in the closest stream to their discharge. Now there are salmon that have started to come up the stream, although they are not close to the discharge point. Would that mean that Red Dog must now stop discharging because salmon have decided to "move in?"

2 August 18, 2008 - 7:32pm | Alaskalilac

BM4

And now we learn that Pro-BM4 henchmen threatened and strong armed the Native Corporations to go against Pebble? And when they refused, they started running anti-Red Dog ads? There is no place in Alaska for these tactics. New Jersey, maybe.

1 August 18, 2008 - 7:17pm | njalo99

the basics

from what I have seen and heard We can have mining and fishing, this BM4 is not the way tho- Alaska has the best enviromental standards that the mining companies Have to adhere to......BM4 just introduces More undue legislation and regulation and finally Litagation in to a process that already works for the best interest of Alaska. If the idea is to stop Just the Pebble mine then this initiative is not the answer....... find another way and vote No on 4

August 19, 2008 - 6:21am | Victor67

Right on

Yes on mining... Yes on fishing...
NO ON 4

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