May 24, 2006 - 7:52pm | beaches

Smoking ban

This issue is NOT about those who are addicted to tobacco. If you stop and really think about it, it is about private property rights. Eating bacon isn't good for your health either, but plenty of restaurants are serving it to those who want it (until some government "nanny" orders those restaurants to stop serving it. I'm a non-smoker, and I have the freedom to decide which business establishments I want to go to. If I don't want smoke, I don't go there. FREEDOM OF CHOICE FOR BUSINESS OWNERS AND PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNERS is what it's all about.

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  May 24, 2006 - 9:52pm | alutiiq98

No, it would be a property

No, it would be a property owners rights situation if smoke only had an effect on the smoker.

The only way your bacon analogy would work is if the bacon YOU eat clog MY arteries.

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  May 25, 2006 - 8:30am | beaches

Smoking ban

You completely misunderstood my analogy. I do not know how anyone can possibly not accept the FACT that a smoking ban is a violation of property rights. Our government is supposed to protect those rights, not violate them. Business owners have the right to ban smoking in their establishments, or not. Customers have the right to choose whether they want to do business there, or not. Workers have the right to choose to work in a smoke-free environment, or not. It's all about rights and for the life of me I can not understand how someone would support the government's attempts to take away those rights.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:06pm | alutiiq98

Yes, the sky is falling. Run

Yes, the sky is falling. Run for your lives. It is an obvious and logical leap from exposing people to others' refuse and banning alcohol altogether.

It is great if you want to argue, but could you please stick to the subject at hand?

Mest, the non-smoking bar wouldn't have a problem with business if ALL the bars were smokefree, because there would be a level playing field. Everyone has the same rules.

Good lord, you'd think someone was saying you can never smoke again. Could you folks please find a little perspective here and calm down a little bit?

I have a cure to this problem for you- if you are in a bar, and you want to smoke, WALK 50 FEET FROM THE DOOR OUTSIDE AND SMOKE THERE, THEN, YOU CAN GO BACK INSIDE.

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  May 24, 2006 - 4:57pm | mest7782

Take your own advice

Boy, you are just looking for a fight, aren't you? Got a new come back for every post on this discussion board the moment something new gets said.

First, all bars start on an equal playing field. They all get to make the same choices when they first open: what kind of drinks do they want to serve, what kind of music do they want to play, and what kind of patrons they want to cater to. Non-smoking-bar owners make a concious decision to cut a huge portion of the market out of their business plan. They are not being disadvantaged by anyone but themselves.

Second, why should a smoker have to walk 50 feet away from a building? I think non-smokers should go outside if they don't want to breathe smoky air. Hell, might as well walk yourself all the way back home, since the smoke inside the bar is keeping you from having any fun.

And, about the sky falling . . . you gotta start somewhere when trying to reform the habits of a society. It may sound like a gigantic leap between a smoking ban and an alcohol ban, but the distance between the two is much shorter than anyone can fathom.

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  May 24, 2006 - 9:35pm | alutiiq98

N/M, not worth it.

N/M, not worth it.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:16pm | sdp151

Smokers Rights

If *YOU* want fresh air, take your own advise.
Why would someone want to go to Coots, walk outside, smoke, then wait in the line to get back in?
Didn't think about that one did you? Maybe you should have.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:23pm | alutiiq98

If I were a betting person,

If I were a betting person, I'd be alllll my money that the owner of Coots will build himself a nice little smoking porch for his little smoking empire so your little addicted world won't come to an end, as will most of the other owners of bars. And you can patronize those bars.

Besides, why is it a public problem if coots can't handle their own traffic? Please.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:30pm | sdp151

Oh come on

Did you not read the complaint about these smoke huts? Do you not listen to your non-smoking pals? You should look at the view of ALL people here, and not be "racist" toward me. I don't see you harping on anyone else with the same views I have. Maybe I should press charges.. oh wait, the cops are too busy checking for seatbelts.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:34pm | alutiiq98

So now there's a smoking

So now there's a smoking race?

Man, I wonder why I didn't see that on my last Census forms...

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  May 24, 2006 - 5:09pm | mest7782

Man, you always get caught up in the little details

Racism probably wasn't the most correct term for sdp to use in his rebuttal, but it carries the same point.

This smoking ban is a discrimination towards people who choose to smoke. Discrimination, of any kind, is illegal.

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  May 24, 2006 - 5:50pm | beaches

Smoking ban

More importantly, the smoking ban takes away a private business owner's rights. Why should they be forced to comply when they OWN their property and have every right to cater to their customers as they see fit. If this ban is passed, the door will also be open for banning smoking indoors in your own home and vehicle. I'm sick of people who support taking away the freedoms our men and women have fought and died for.

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  May 24, 2006 - 9:27pm | alutiiq98

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  May 24, 2006 - 1:44pm | sdp151

Thank you

It's nice to see that there are some people left in the world that acknowledge the right of choice, use common sense, and understanding. I would like to thank you, because even though you are a non-smoker, you still see the problems with these statements. You are a role model for America and all citizens. Thank you, on behalf of all smokers and on behalf of all TRUE Americans.

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  May 24, 2006 - 3:59pm | beaches

Smoking ban

I agree with you both. I am also a nonsmoker but I'll be damn if I will support any legislation that infringes on personal and business property rights. Far too many people seem to be more than willing to toss our freedoms right out the window for their own selfish reasons. For those who respect our freedoms, take a stand!

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  May 25, 2006 - 8:13am | sdp151

Yes

I think everyone is too concerned about the 'smoking' part of this issue, when they should be thinking "Hey, if smokers lose a right, then who's next?". I think everyone needs to be at this "public hearing" - smokers and non - just to work on keeping our rights and freedoms. I know this is a LOT to ask. I noticed people in this state just take these issues with a grain of salt, I have yet to see anyone standing around with a sign in protest. I think everyone needs to get out that day and go make a stand.
If we lose this one, what will they take from us next? Will they give in to teacher strikes and make all students pay for education? I know that's a big difference, but every right we lose makes that gap closer.

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  May 24, 2006 - 1:35pm | sdp151

We don't?

Who says we don't realize how bad it smells?? I know it does, and I'm still smoking!

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  May 24, 2006 - 3:26pm | david_sewall

My parents

My father and mother who smoked for many years both said they didn't realize how bad it smelled until after they quit. When they go to bars and other places with smoke they can't stand it when they get home.

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  May 25, 2006 - 8:16am | sdp151

They aren't me

They may not have realized it, but I would like to let you know I am a smoker, and I can't stand second hand smoke. If there's a lit one near me and the smoke is coming in my face, I can't take the smell. But I love sitting down and smoking. We had a discussion at our house last night about this issue, and all were in agreement that if this goes through, we will no longer go to the bar. If I can't have a smoke with my beer and game of pool, I can't go to the bar. That won't be a 'choice' for me, that will be forced upon me by loss of freedom.

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  May 24, 2006 - 12:37pm | sdp151

Please

I think you need to go back to California. You should stop spending summers here, and just stay in that messed up state.
If you have to "shower, wash your hair" and "would rather just not go" stop going!
Do you idiots realize that if this passed you're basically saying "If you smoke, stay home". That sounds to me like modern day segregation. What about OUR rights. We have rights too, and just because you're too picky and can't go somewhere because 'there's smoke' then stay out of there. Are you so rude and inconsiderate of other people that you can't go somewhere and have a good time MINUS the downfalls of it?
If you are going to complain about a SMOKING ROOM, then you need to get off your high horse and go live on the streets. Did you ever think about that you rich soc? Did you ever, JUST ONCE, put yourself in someone else's shoes and think about how they feel, and what they go through in life? NO, you didn't, and that's obvious because you won't go somewhere for one stupid reason. You remind me of the people that only go to certain bars because of "the other people there". Get over yourselves. We are all put here to live, so let's live.
America is free, if you can't deal with the choices people make in their FREE lives, then move - Russia would love you.

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  May 24, 2006 - 12:58pm | alutiiq98

Do you idiots realize that

Do you idiots realize that if this passed you're basically saying "If you smoke, stay home".

Uh, no. Again. We'd be saying, if you smoke go outside, like you have to do most of the time.

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  May 24, 2006 - 1:49pm | sdp151

Uhh think again

They're talking about banning smoking in 'public places'. This means outdoors, and it means you can't walk outside the bar and light up. Think about what you're saying, you're saying you, as public don't want to deal with the smoke indoors or out, you're not telling us to walk outside and light up, you're telling us "don't put smoke in my air". And it's not what YOU say, it's what DAN COFFEY says. Hear what he says, as well as the rest of the assembly that wants this ban before you say I can go outside to smoke.
And why should I go outside? Why don't YOU go outside, and stop being in my smoke filled bar. Ever stop to think we like the smoke. Uh, no, because non-smokers don't think about these things. And I don't have to go outside most of the time...

While we're on the "outside smoking" isn't it true that in Juneau they can still smoke in their offices??? Why don't we work on that one before we try a ban?

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:01pm | alutiiq98

You're being awfully vocal

You're being awfully vocal on this- have you read the ordinance? I'd guess not, you don't seem like a facts-first type of person. I have read it.

Public spaces DOES NOT INCLUDE OUTDOOR PLACES.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:14pm | sdp151

If So

Then why do they bring up parks? And what else will be brought up next? The bus station? The mall? The "Furondy" parking lot? And if you think this will only affect bars, you obviously are blind, and won't admit that it WILL get carried away.
And who says banning smoking will stop there, how many people have brought up the fact that booze will be next?
You don't need facts to fight for rights against STUPID laws. Make a law that child molesters have to get a paper signed by everyone on their block and I'll back it, NO QUESTIONS.

Banning smoking is segregation, and in case YOU don't know your facts, that's been outlawed.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:26pm | alutiiq98

They're bringing up parks

They're bringing up parks because they're municipally owned land, and the city is exercising the right you people keep yapping about to regulate what happens on their own land.

Now, is anyone talking about the mall? Is anyone talking about booze? No, nobody supporting the ordinance is asking for a 'booze' ban, as you so eloquently put it, because it is a really stupid idea. Besides, your obvious drinking problems don't really effect anyone but you. The only people who are bringing up booze are the people who are ineffectively arguing against the ban because they mistakenly think it is making their argument seem stronger. It isn't.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:33pm | sdp151

Not yet

But give it time, if you give up ONE right, you give up ALL rights.
Think about EVERYONE's FREEDOM, not what you think or what you think you know.
Excuse someone for trying to keep America free after all the coruption it's seen. Besides, if they ban smoking to make the non-smokers happy, then they better find out how to make it EQUAL for smokers. Or did you forget, ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL?

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:38pm | alutiiq98

Yes, all men are equal.

Yes, all men are equal. We're working on that.

Non-smokers should have the right not to be assaulted and harmed by the actions of someone else in a public place.

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  May 25, 2006 - 8:18am | sdp151

You're working on INequality

So to keep non-smokers "safe" smokers can't go anywhere public? Why don't you just put us in jail then, because that's what you're trying to do. Why don't you just make another dumb law to put innocent people in jail. Yeah, that's real equal.

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  May 24, 2006 - 12:58pm | alutiiq98

also, calling other people

also, calling other people idiots in your given state probably isn't the wisest idea.

Pot, meet kettle.

Are you trying to help your opposition?

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  May 24, 2006 - 1:51pm | sdp151

Wise vs. Freedom

I don't care if YOU think I'm wise, I'm here to fight for the rights of smokers and the FREEDOM of Americans, smokers and nons alike. Excuse me for trying to get a point across.

WORRY ABOUT REAL ISSUES. Like the child molester walking down your block right now, or that pothole you hit everyday, or the crack head junkie you live near.

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  May 24, 2006 - 1:05pm | alutiiq98

Yep, you and your seatbelt

Yep, you and your seatbelt or lack thereof are cool with me. I figure it is just Darwin at work.

SECONDHAND SMOKE, however, effects people OTHER than you, and I hate to break it to you if your momma didn't, but it isn't exactly a you-centric universe.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:20pm | sdp151

You must be busy today

Darwin is a good man, that's why I've NEVER worn a seatbelt and still live to piss you off.
And this isn't about YOU or ME. This is about FREEDOM and the lack thereof, or have you yet to notice how little by little we ARE losing freedom. You may be willing to sit back while someone takes your life away, but I never will.
Did your momma ever tell you "give an inch they take a mile" apparently not if you're willing to give up someone else's freedom and think you won't one day lose yours.

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  May 24, 2006 - 2:31pm | alutiiq98

so, you're not arguing the

so, you're not arguing the merits of this particular ordinance, you're arguing because something more sinister might happen along the line?

Look, you're free to smoke. Common decency and ethics would say that it would be better to harm yourself in a place that doesn't harm other people. Why is that so hard to understand?

Besides, who are you or anyone else to say that bar and bingo workers don't deserve the same safeguards of their health that nearly everyone else does? What kind of freedom is that? Everyone else deserves a safe place to make a living wage BUT THEM. Because the "freedom" of a few people is more important.

That's just nasty.

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  May 25, 2006 - 8:23am | sdp151

Come on already

These people working these jobs CHOSE to apply, and CHOSE to accept the job they were OFFERED. Nobody shoved it down their throats, nobody said "You must go work in a bar and smell smoke because you hate it". NO, and you people are foolish to think that the people working at bars took the job hoping that noone would come in and smoke. There are other jobs out there, or haven't you checked that section of the web? HUNDREDS of jobs out there, and yes, everyone deserves a safe place to work - so if they think smokers are ruining their health that much, they can go get one of these other jobs.
You don't just deserve a safe job, you have to FIND it. You think the guys going out to the bush are 'safe'? What about the ones that go without guns, to these crazy villages? You think they're safe? Maybe you should take a riskier job then sitting behind a desk all day, and then you'll see the unsafer jobs out there, and that they have nothing to do with smoke. Obviously you just sit at a desk, on the computer, with nothing to do if you were on here all day yesterday.
Go get a new job, that requires you to do LABOR - then you'll see why OSHA makes their laws, and if you go to a construction site, you'll see a bunch of people smoking too!

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