This is the most thorough critique of Alcoholics Anonymous I've ever seen. Very well done. My favorite so far on their site:....#29: Reinhold Niebuhr: "Hitler and Buchman" article....(for those that don't know about AA, it came from the Oxford Groups)....
Here's the site:
www.orange-papers.org
Excerpt from Niebuhrs "Hitler and Buchman":
___
A NAZI PHILOSOPHY
In other words, a Nazi social philosophy has been a covert presumption of the whole Oxford group enterprise from the very beginning. We may be grateful to the leader for revealing so clearly what has been slightly hidden. Now we can see how unbelievably naïve this movement is in its efforts to save the world. If it would content itself with preaching repentance to drunkards and adulterers one might be willing to respect it as a religious revival method which knows how to confront the sinner with God. But when it runs to Geneva, the seat of the League of Nations, or to Prince Starhemberg or Hitler, or to any seat of power, always with the idea that it is on the verge of saving the world by bringing the people who control the world under God-control, it is difficult to restrain the contempt which one feels for this dangerous childishness.
This idea of world salvation implies a social philosophy which is completely innocent of any understanding of the social dynamics of a civilization. Does Mr. Buchman really believe that the dictators of the modern world create their dictatorships out of whole cloth? He does not know, evidently, that they are the creatures more than the creators of vast social movements in modern history. The particular social forces which create dictatorships are on the whole the decadent forces of a very sick society. The sickness of that society is the sickness of sin; and if a word of God is to be spoken in such an hour as this let it be the woe of Christ upon his Jerusalem or the prophecy of judgement which an Amos or Jeremiah pronounced upon their civilization.
___
That was 1936. Interesting he cites Amos and Jeremiah. So does Cornel West in his speeches and interviews.
__
And regarding "The increasingly obvious fascist philosophy which informs the group movement is in other words not only socially vicious but religiously vapid.", Neibuhr ends on the note: "No wonder the rather jittery plutocrats of our day open their spacious summer homes to its message!"


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flag this »10 April 29, 2009 - 9:09am | TYJHFJ
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أنا البندورة الحمرة - فرقة طيور الجنة للأطفال , السيارة.. من وسيلة مواصلات إلى لوحة فنية ,
عصومي ووليد - طيور الجنة , مرة طلعنا - فرقة طيور الجنة ,
إيراني يضرب عروسه ليلة زواجهم , مسلسلات وبرامج قناه فوكس ,
رقص في جلسة طرب , صور من زواج نانسي عجرم ,
كلاش , طارق العلي ,
الليدي أوسكار , فضيحة ناصر الجوهر ,
تنظيف الكعبه , الزير سالم بشسع نعل كليب ,
جدة , موقف محرج لمسؤول كوري ,
نوال الكويتيه , قصة الأصمعي ,
المتنبي , أوراق الكوتشينه ,
المخدرات+الغزل+التفحيط , تبوك ,
صلاله , أعاصير ,
صواعق , سعودية تصرخ في اليوتيوب ,
قصائد خالد عبد الرحمن , نجران ,
تكبيرات العيد , عنى كلمة - الله يرجك - مهم ,
حكم من نسي البسملة في الصلاة , فضل يوم عرفة وحال السلف فيه ,
سور القران , كيف تخشع في الصلاة ,
بطاقات دعويه عن يوم عرفه , فوائد نفض الفراش قبل النوم ,
أحاديث عن فضل الصلاة على النبي , فضل عشر ذي الحجه ,
أفضل أيام الدنيا , فضل صيام يوم عرفه ,
تفسير سورة الفاتحة , احساس مؤلم ,
قصة حلوة , خالد عبدالحمن ,
قواعد حفظ القران الكريم , سبب سواد ركب المرأة العربية ,
حكم قول كلمة تحياتي , فتاوي حكم لعبة ترافيان ,
حكم لعبة ترافيان , لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله ,
الفرق بين انشاء الله و ان شاء الله , سبب تسمية سورة البقرة ,
دعاء لتوسعة الرزق , الطريق الى الجنة ,
رسائل رمضان , حلاوة صلاة الفجر ,
مكياج اسلامي , تفسير سورة النصر ,
حل مشكلة الكذب عند الاطفال , عقوبة تارك الصلاة ,
أجمل نساء العالم , فلاشات إسلامية ,
السيرة النبوية , ظاهرة الكتابة على الجدران كيف العلاج ,
عجائب البنات ,
نقاب وكحل برمودا والسيقان طالعة من تحت العباة , حب البنت للبنت وحب الشاب للشاب ,
صور للخيول العربيه , صور أغنى رجال في العالم ,
صور , صور ورود ,
كيوت , طيران كيرلا الهندي ,
صوره لميس وهي صغيرونه , اغرب اللقطات العجيبه والطريفة ,
افلام ديزني للتحميل , صور الحسرة والبكاء في جنازة الفنانة سوزان تميم ,
افلام عادل امام ومسرحيات , جميع حلقات المسلسل الكويتي عرس الدم ,
مسلسلات , صور هيفاء ,
حلقات مسلسل لا مكان لا وطن , المسلسل التركي نور ,
اروع الافلام الرومنسية , صور حليمة بولند ,
رسائل وسائط رومانسية حلوة , مسجات حب رسائل غرام حلوة ,
وسائط حلوة منوعة للجوال , رسائل و مسجات عيد الاضحى ,
رسائل وسائط حب رومانسية جنان , وسائط عيد الأضحى ,
رسائل وسائط - ضحيه من ضحايا الوقت , رسائل وسائط منوعة ,
صور وسائط حلوة للجوال , صور وسائط دلع ,
مسجات مقالب رسائل مضحكه , سائل وسائط حب حلوة ,
مسجات × مسجات , مسجات حب , مسجات عتاب , رسائل جديده , رسائل رومانسية ,
وسائط للعيد , وسائط العوده الى المدرسه ,
مسجات للعيد قبل الزحمة , حروف الحب ,
مسجات شوق مع وسائط روعة , رساله لزعلان ,
مقلب في رسائل الجوال , رسائل غزليه ,
مسجات حب , مسجات استهبال ,
مسجات حب و غرام , اجمل الرسائل الرومانسية ,
احلى مسجات للمزعجين , مسجات تخلي اللي ما يحس يحس ,
أنمي متحركه , صور انمي بنات 2009 أنمي دلوعات ,
صور انمي حلوة على البحر , صور بنات انمي صور حلوة ,
صور أنمى أحمر × أحمر , صور انمي بنات صور انمي شباب ,
صور انمي حب جنان , صور بنات صور انمي بناتية ,
موقع انيمي ياباني , صور انمي اطفال حلوين كول ,
ملف لصور الانمي , مسلسل سالي كامل 46 حلقه ,
جميع حلقات مسلسل الكرتون عدنان ولينا 26 حلقه , صور انيمي روعة ,
صور ميكي ماوس , موسوعة التوبيكات ,
كات للماسنجر - والله قوي , توبيكات واو ,
توبيكات غير , الآن سجل في بريد الهوتميل باللغة العربية ,
توبيكات ملونه جونان , توبيكات جنان ,
موسوعة توبيكات ملونه , توبيكات - خالد عبدالحمن - مثل العسل ,
تحذير لكل من تستخدم الهوتميل والياهو , منتديات ,
نكات للبنات , ايميلك الجديد (w.cn \ live.nl \ l.cn \ m.cn \ 9.cn ) تحديث جديد ,
موقع يفتح لك ايميلك بدون ماتنزل البرناامج , لا عاد تعانيني ولا اعانيك توبيكات ملونه + صـور ,
توبيكات بلا حب البوم راشد الماجد 2009 , صور مسن ,
صور رمزيه لابطال المسلسل التركي لحظة وداع , صور اجمل شباب ماسنجر ,
صور اجمل بنات ماسنجر , مسجات حزينة رسائل فراق ,
صور لتطعيم الاولاد ايام الابتدائي , لعشاق الخيول صور خيل عربيه رائعه ,
صور إسلامية , صور لتزيين مواضيع المنتديات ,
طريقة تلوين النك نيم , صور للمسـن ,
هم حكولك وش صار بغيابي , تجرحي بإسم المحبه وبعد غيبه تسالي ,
شخبار عينك بعدها تعشق النجمه , توبيكات - اهتم فيني وحط بالك علي ,
توبيكات الماسنجر اليومية , توبـكات - ملونه جرب ركبها عندك وشوف كيف ,
صور ماسنجر جنان , توبيكات ملونه للمسن بالصور ,
عيوني اخر امالي , سكريبتات للماسنجر ,
توبيكات شوكولاته + مشروبات مع الصور , توبيكات للاختبارات ,
اذا ايميلك انسرق - كيف ترجع الاسماء اللي فيه , طريقه لأطفاء جهاز من يزعجك بالمسن ,
نك نيمات ملونه + صور للماسنجر , خل الماسنجر يقول بصوتك .. جتك رسالة ,
توبيكات - ياخلي يامرتاح ليتك تواسيني , صور ماسنجر ,
حلفتك خليني غافي احلم فيك - توبيكات , القلوب نفس القلوب بس ما تقدر تحب صور للماسنجر ,
صور مسن للصبايا الحلوين متلي , صور للماسنجر ,
شفت السعاده يوم عيني شافتك , واللي بيفكر يجرحك برتـح منه بقتله - توبيكات - صور ,
توبيكات رومنسيه - عتاب - كوميديه - منوعه , قلبي شموخه يساوي الف مـن ذاته - التوبك + صور للماسنجر ,
رموزماسنجر , اسماء للماسنجر - روعه ,
حسافه ما نفعني صدقي ولا فادتني اخلاقي - توبيكات , صور مسن من جهازي ,
اكثر من 70 نك ملون للماسنجر بلس , مكتبة الماسنجر ، توبيكـات + صـور + ايقونات ,
توبيكات - اغاني راشد الماجد , اجمل توبيكات روعة للمسن ,
وبيكات - ياما حاولت الفراق وماقويت , وبيكات ماسنجر حلوة للمسن ,
توبيكات اغاني توبيكات راشد الماجد حلوة للماسنجر , توبيكات البوم سلمان حميد 2009 - عسى الله لا يجيب خصام لجل حبنا وعلشانه ,
سمايلات و ابتسامات حلوة للمسن , توبيكات مضحكه ,
توبيكات عيون عليا , توبيكات ملونة توبيك للماسنجر ,
توبيكات البوم نوال الكويتيه , توبيكات اغاني البوم فارس مهدي ,
توبكات ملونه جديده توبك - اذا ابتسمتي يذوب السكر بلونك , فيسآت للماسنجر ولآكم / برب / تيت / باك / صباح الخير / تقبل الله ,
توبيكات توبكات ملونة حب وغرام وعشق للمسن , توبيكات هلاليه ,
توبيكات روعه , صور رمزيه للماسنجر اولاد وبنات حلوه ,
توبيكات البوم انسى للفنان ماجد المهندس , أروع ثيمات للمسنجر لا تفوت الفرصة حمل و دلعه ,
توبيكات اغنية يارا الجديدة - انت مني , توبيكات شعرية توبيكات الشاعر خلف المشعان ,
برنامج تحويل الصوت في الماسنجر المسن من ولد الى بنت و العكس , توبيكات و صور ,
توبيكات منوعة توبيكات رومانسية حلوة للماسنجر , توبيكات منوعة توبيكات رومانسية حلوة للماسنجر ,
اشكال روعه للماسنجر , ثيمات ماسنجر ,
برنامج يغير كل 3 ثواني صورة المسنجر , توبيكات خطيره ,
توبيكات لاغاني نوال الكويتيه روعه , توبيكات - هلاليه - اتحاديه - نصراويه -اهلاويه ,
صور للماسنجر - انتظر - مشغول - بالصلاة - نائم - غير متواجد , توبيكات للمدرسة ,
توبيكات ولا اروع , ابتسامات حلوة مره ,
توبيكات ملونة للمسانجر , وبيكات الفنانه كروزون ,
توبيكات للماسنجر روعة , توبيكات جديده ,
توبيكات ماجد المهندس , اسماء تصلح للماسنجر ,
اجمل الصورة في ماسنجر , توبيكات + صور + برسنال ,
صور ماسن , صور + تـوبيكات ,
صور ماسنجر للبنات , توبيكات جديده ,
توبيكات × توبيكات , طريقه إخفاء اسمك بالماسنجر ,
توبيكات باب الحاره , تعتذر توبيكات + بكتشرز ,
توبيكات مليون خاطر عبدالمجيد عبدالله , توبيكات اسلاميه ,
توبيكات حلوه , الماسنجر الهلالي ,
شباب × شباب - احلى صور , صـور انمي للماسنجر ,
صور للمسن خطيره , توبيكات - ستاربوكس ,
مشكله في المسن , طريقه نقل الايميلات الى ايميل ثاني جديد بثواني ,
توبيكات , توبيكات الاختبارات ,
اسمك المستعار على المسنجر , توبيكات نادي النصر العالمي ,
توبيكات ملونه - مع صور للعرض , صور × صور مسن ,
طرقه فتحه اكثر من ايميل في وقت واحد - شرح سهل , صور للمسن والمنتديات ,
صور ماسنجر - ياسرالقحطاني , توبيكات × توبيكات جديده ,
جالكسي - ماك - ريد بول - بيبسي - توبكات على كيفكم
ستايلات كيوت ,هوت سبوت
تحميل برنامج هوت سبوت ,
القوات البرية تعلن توفر وظائف لحملة الدبلوم الصحي , وظائف للبنات شركة الجريسي ,
ادارة خدمات التوظيف بأرامكو السعودية , أول موقع عربي متخصص في التوظيف النسائي ,
الأمن العام يفتح باب القبول والتسجيل لرتبة جندي لخريجي الثانوية العامة , اليوم المفتوح للتوظيف بجامعة الملك فهد ,
وظايف لطلاب لاهل الرياض - مسائيه , أكثر من 50 وظيفة في مجموعة بن لادن السعودية ,
فرصة عمل للشباب - جده , وظائف لمهندسين بالمنطقة الشرقية ,
وظائف بالمدينة المنورة_ رجال , طلب وظائف - سما للطيران - مجموعة الفيصلية ,
وظائف جمعية الانسان للبنات والشباب , وظائف شاغرة بشركة اتصالات كبرى شباب الرياض ,
اربع آلاف وظيفة تربوية ونسبة من الوظائف الحكومية للمعاقين , فرص وظيفيه للبنات في برامج عبداللطيف جميل ,
وظائف متنوعه , وظائف للمعاقين 3000 ريال بشرى سارة ,
وظائف نسائية شاغرة بوزارة الخارجية , وظائف لحملة الكفاءة المتوسطة لدى مركز التميمي للتدريب ,
كيف تنجح في المقابلة الشخصية , فتح باب القبول والتسجيل في الامن العام ,
وظائف المسشتفى السعودي الالماني جدة -المدينة المنورة- عسير , وظائف بمدينة الطائف (عاجل ) ,
وظائف شاغرة في جامعة الملك سعود , توظيف للمعاقين والمعاقات ,
وظائف معلمين ومعلمات , وظائف في منطقة الرياض - شركات ,
سلم الرواتب من وزارة الخدمة المدنيه , وظائف بالقوات الجوية الملكية السعودية ,
وظائف معلمات بمدارس أهلية , وظائف في بنك البلاد ,
قصة حب قصة الحب والغضب , قصة اغتصاب بنت شابة في بداية شبابها ,
معاوية بن أبي سفيان , أغرب قصة حب بالرياض ,
فهد وسارة - قصة مؤلمه , قصه واقعيه ,
حكمة اليوم , حكم وامثال ,
أروع قصة حب في التاريخ , قصص غريبه ,
قصه مره حلوه , قصة حب محزنة ,
قصه مضحكه , اغتصاب فتاة وهي ميته ,
قصه حب حزينه , اغتصبوني بمساعدة أمي - مؤلمة ,
قصه في سوء الخاتمه , قصة جميلة ,
قصه حقيقه , قصه روعه ,
قصة مؤثرة جداً , قصص قصيره ومعبره ,
قصة مأساوية , قصة حقيقة مضحكة ,
دعاء وحكمة اليوم , قصص قصيرة واقعية ومضحكة ,
اغتصاب في ثلاجة الموتى نسال الله السلامة والعافية , قصه من الخيال ,
أغتصاب طفله , روعة المشاعر في إسعاد الآخرين ,
ام تغصب بنتها على معاشرة زوج اختها , قصة شاب ضرب ابوه بالمصحف ,
ولادة بعض الحيوانات , شبيهة أسيل عمران ,
مستر بن , مقطع فيديو للطائر الذي رافق الجنازه لمسافة 350 كيلو ,
بوش يرمى بالحذاء , أضحك مع خروف العيد ,
أقم صلاتك , شرح فك ضغط الملفات الضغوطة ,
كيفية تغير كلمة السر للإيميل , بوربوينت- اضافة ملفات الصوت و الفيديو ,
شرح لكيفة عمل فيديو بالبوربوينت , شرح طريقة تحميل الفيديو من اليوتيوب ,
تعلم بعض دروس الفوتوشوب , عملية ربط المعدة ,
عملية ولاده حقيقيه , مقاطع فله ,
قصر الوليد بن طلال , مقاطع من زواج بنت الأمير الوليد بن طلال ,
عرضة جنوبيه , فايز المالكي في العراب ,
تكبيرات العيد , النشيد الوطني السعودي ,
صورة شيطان حقيقية-للكبار فقط , برنامج 99 صلاح الغيدان والساحر ,
جورج وسوف , مقاطع مضحكه ,
ناصر الفراعنه , موقف محرج لمسؤول كوري ,
صور رومانسية غاية في الروعة و الجمال , مشجعات نصراويات ,
أضخم أمرأه فالعالم , العوده للمدارس ,
لمحبي الانمي , مناظر طبيعية روعة ,
صور ساعات متحركه , صور أغرب ثلاث نخلات في العالم ,
صور كهوف , صورة اخت لميس ,
صور حليمة بولند قبل وبعد عمليات التجميل , اجمل الصور الطبيعيه ,
صوره نادره لملوك السعوديه , صور سحاب بخيال فنان ,
صور اسلاميه روعه , صوره مؤثره ومبكيه ,
لوحات فنيه , صور رومانسية ,
عارضة ازياء تضع صورة الملك عبدالله , صور رهيبة ,
صور مضحكه , اطول شعر ,
كاريكاتيرات , صوره وتعليق ,
صور غريبه وعجيبه , صور رمنسيه ,
صور حزينه , خضار × خضار ,
صور لأكلة الأطفال , فلسلفة رساام ,
قوتشي , بنات حواء ,
فساتين المصمم ايلي صعب , فساتين المصمم ايلي صعب 2009 فساتين سهرة حلوة ,
رسائل وسائط رومانسية , صور رجال ماسنجر شباب للماسنجر ,
صور حروف ماسنجر اسماء للماسنجر , صور وسائط رسايل حلوة رومانسية ,
مسجات تموت من الضحك , مسجات حب 2009 احلى رسائل الحب ,
ريمكس راشد الماجد ويلاه وسعد علوش , صلاة الضحى ,
صور ورود , خلفيات بنات رومانسية 2009 ,
خلفيات , صور انفينتي 2009 ,
صور وسائط - للدفاع عن الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم , سكربتات ,
رسائل تهنئه بالتخرج , عبارات تهنئة بالتخرج ,
صور مسن حلوه سمايل , صور وسائط حلوه ,
ديكورات , صور احلى بنات ,
صور احلى بنات 2009 للماسنجر , الماسنجر الاصدار 9 للتحميل ,
توبيكات المدرسه , وسائط للاختبارت ,
تصميم للمدرسة , صور نادرة ,
توبيكات جديده مزخرفه , مسجات عتاب ,
مسجات اعتذار , مسجات شوق ,
مسجات وداع وفراق , خلطات روعه لشعر ,
خلطات لشعر , سعد بن جدلان - ودنا بالطيب بس الدهر جحاد طيـب - مقطع صوت ,
صور دباديب بطاقات رومانسية للتصميم حلوة , صور قلوب رومانسية للمسن جديدة ,
طريقة تخصيص نغمة لكل شخص في المسنجر بالصور , قصة حب قصة الحب والغضب ,
صور اطفال 2009 انمي حلوة , انمي بنات متحركة ,
بنات انمي حلوة دلع , صور انمي حب 2009 ,
صور انمي روعة , صور انمي خلفيات لسطح المكتب ,
صور ميكي وميني ماوس , مسجات عتب وخصام ,
خلفيات ملونه جديدة , صور ماسنجر قلوب للماسنجر 2009 ,
توبيكات غرور توبكات غرور ملونه , صور اطفال للماسنجر ,
نظارات كشخه 2009 , صور فساتين زفاف بنات 2009 ,
صور ماسنجر سعودية للماسنجر , صور لكزس الجديدة ,
مسجات اختبارات حلوه رسائل للطلاب , صور غرف نوم 2009 جنان ,
صور خلفيات ورود جنان , صور لتزيين مواضيع المنتديات ,
وسائط حلوة منوعة للجوال , صور فساتين سهرة 2009 للبنات ,
مسجات اعتذار رسائل زعل حلوه , صور حمام ,
اجمل الديكورات لعام 2009 ، ديكور 2009 ، ديكورات 2009 , صور مضحكة 2009 ,
صور للماسنجر , توبكات البوم راشد الماجد 2009 ,
صور سيارات , صور إسلامية ,
تحميل ماسنجر بلس , مسنجر بلس ,
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تصميم مواقع تصميم مواقع تصميم واجهات مواقع
تصميم ستايلات تصميم ستايلات منتديات تصميم ستايلات سكربتات
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صور كرتون صور كرتون
صور ورود صور ورود
صور قطط صور قطط
صور حيوانات صور حيوانات
صور بنات صور بنات
صور مضحكة صور مضحكة
صور جديدة صور جديدة
صور للمسنجر صور للمسنجر
سيارات تويوتا سيارات تويوتا
سيارات مرسيدس سيارات مرسيدس
سيارات معدله سيارات معدله
صور سيارات كامري صور سيارات كامري
سيارات نيسان سيارات نيسان
سيارات قديمة سيارات قديمة
flag this »8 July 19, 2008 - 6:46pm | rlee
Perhaps one such
as yourself may take upon themselves the burden of self-responsibility rather than the expectation that some other entity, be they of a personal, biblical, or organisational basis, to do that in your stead.
It seems to me, in mine own personal opinion, that the issue causing these many timid scenarios is not the result of their actions, but that of your own.
You have stated that you are openly gay. So what? Why does this matter except that you feel the need to defend that position? Apparently, you feel the need to justify that stance because you feel persecuted somehow because of that stance.
You have stated that you are an alcoholic. So what?
Why does this matter except that you feel the need to defend that position because of your personal experience as a result of being gay? Again, you justify yourself unto your own stance, rather than any other that has been brought forward unto you by anyone else. You yourself have brought a negative position unto yourself. Not one other poster has done so.
You have stated that unto your own actions, you were unable to pay the debts owed to others that were agreed upon, and yet you blame the entity that you yourself owed retribution, admittedly, because you yourself could not curb your own behaviour.
Please leave the "ad hominem" and "usury" accusations be. The only entity responsible for your situation is yourself. No other, and nor will there ever be. It is up to you, individually, to change what you perceive to be some sort of personal attack, because it is you that allows those attacks to occur.
Fix the problems unto yourself. Do not expect others to do it for you.
flag this »July 20, 2008 - 12:07pm | Azorka
Your entire post....
...is focused on me...ad hominem. You evade addressing societal neglect. You make false statements about myself as a ploy to invoke argumentation as a means of evasion. If you actually believe the statements you misrepresent me with, you need to go back and re-read my threads/website. Otherwise it's simply another form of slander.
flag this »July 21, 2008 - 7:44am | belmontrose1
Ingrown Hairs, Ticks, and ....
Ingrow Hairs, Ticks, and just what else has been up your AZZ lately? Your drivel is as endless as it is pointless.
flag this »July 20, 2008 - 12:35pm | t_ysarren
you're epitomizing yourself as a victim of societal neglect...
when all around you concerned people are trying to help you; help that you keep swatting away like a pesky mosquito. Your threads/website are more of the same, grumbling that no one is supporting you. Unless you find a lonely rich widow, its highly unlikely you will find a sucker to fall for your shenanigans. By your very actions/inactions you are promoting what you have become. I hope no young people are listening to you, bad example.
flag this »July 20, 2008 - 2:47pm | Azorka
You're lying...
...and I'm having too much fun viewing France Gall on YouTube to bother with your baiting. Here's a blessing for you...she's on the top of my faves....www.youtube.com/user/Azorka82
have fun!
flag this »7 July 19, 2008 - 1:22pm | Azorka
Looks like we ran out of room...
...so will reply here to t_ysarren:
Don't Pretend You're Trying To Help....
...when you blame people by saying : "if you think society will all of a sudden reverse itself... just to help you overcome your personal demons". Because your blameshifting obfuscates societal neglect.
flag this »July 19, 2008 - 1:55pm | t_ysarren
'be ye doers of the word and not...
hearers only.." Whatever, man. Have it your way, like you always have had, sounds like.
flag this »July 19, 2008 - 3:29pm | Azorka
"Be ye doers...
...precisely.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
flag this »6 July 16, 2008 - 1:13pm | Azorka
AA Practices Segregation
From my site www.azorka.wordpress.com:
.....I continued to be openly gay and returned to Anchorage, Alaska in 1996 (after getting sober there in 1985). There was backlash in the AA meetings for being openly gay, even though it should have been perfectly acceptable to share in the vein of “Yes, I used to drink too much, and part of the reason was because I was gay and felt ostracized in society, so drinking helped me to escape an unpleasant reality. But it got out of control, etc.” However, to do so was considered to bring politics into AA, deliberately causing controversy in violation of Tradition Five–the primary purpose of recovery from alcoholism.
I challenged the condition that it was only acceptable to speak of being gay in relation to one’s alcoholism if it occurred in a segregated “special interest” gay meeting. Segregation contradicts AA’s ”Love and tolerance of others is our code” (Big Book; p.84). For example, in a Tucson AA meeting in 1991 a member shared of his having AIDS and how it threatened his sobriety–he wanted to drink over it. He was lambasted! And that was in a “special interest”gay meeting. Conservative gay members demanded he not speak of it, citing the Traditions of it being “an outside issue” and humiliated him terribly. It was such quick, vehement oppression, vicious, that I sat dumbfounded and did not defend him [no excuse, but lacked knowledge of the Traditions at that time]. Yet weeks later I was in a straight (regular) meeting of AA and heard a senior citizen share of having received a diagnosis of melanoma cancer. There was tremendous support showed him, people saying “thank you for your courage, thanks for sharing, you’re an example for us that you’re staying sober through such a tough time, etc.” A complete contradiction of the 12 Traditions applied on the AA Group level. And those were not isolated incidents. Chuck Mayer quit AA when the gay group insisted he not speak of having AIDS in the meeting [Chuck founded the Tucson AIDS Coalition]. And HIV-positive members Ed and Damon accepted further segregation from the gay groups, beginning their own meeting called “Positively Sober”.
This contradiction–teaching love but practicing segregation–is not confined to Alcholics Anonymous. The U.S. Christian church establishment has been historically, and presently is, terribly segregated with white and black churches. Also there are hundreds if not thousands of differing denominations. Billy Graham had a crusade in Nashville, TN, believe in 1999. I stood on the mezzinine listening to him say (paraphrasing) “In the next millenium, we need to have better race relations, we need to come together more, etc.”. I happened to turn around at that moment to see a large group of young [20 years old or so] black janitors dressed in white uniforms. The leader was instructing the rest on how to go about cleaning the bathrooms. They were about the only black people inside the entire stadium that was just about filled to capacity. The idealism just preached by Billy Graham juxtaposed against the socio-economic reality of those young black janitors made me think of how AA and religion portend love, but application of their teachings is not collectively manifested.
In the Anchorage AA meetings in 1996 I cited a USA Today African-American columnist and his promoting “integration not assimilation”. Tried my best to hold to the ideal and continue sharing openly gay in a regular AA meeting resisting segregation. But I was still reeling from having been exploited by gay political leaders at a crucial time of coming out in Tucson (when as a white man of privilege I’d never experienced discrimination and its consequent stress). Instead of receiving much needed support back then, and then not being supported in Anchorage because many of the gays were still closeted and they felt they couldn’t afford to be open [which was a realistic appraisal based on my experience], I soon caved in to the hazing (predominately from the conservative members). I actually broke down crying while chairing a meeting of appx. 50 people, the unconscious stress causing me to have a horrific public meltdown [there had been specific threats made outside the meetings, including my own grandmother (who had raised me) being threatened]. To this day I am convinced there was an audible “hiss” from the crowd as they understood my breakdown was due to being afraid.
Nevertheless I continued in the meetings attempting to be openly gay when speaking. I wrote a paper citing the 12 Traditions and Twelve Concepts to show members harassment was in violation, and actually did a terrific job. Cited 8 of the 12, short and long form, and in order. Titled it citing the 12 Concepts (Concept V) if remembering correctly, regarding redress for grievances. Distributed it at meetings but although it had taken me 2 weeks to write it, the response was almost spontaneous in defeating my position.
(The following explicit detail is included because it describes the worst of my actions, and should be considered as full discosure so the reader can judge for themselves whether the ongoing punishment of being a social outcast is warranted due to my actions.)
Along with the defeat came the realization of my living an immoral sexual life outside the meetings. Seems I would receive lap dances in adult nightclubs after frequenting the coin-operated video places. The nightclubs resorted to following the futility of going around bars seeking females. Only as usual, like back when drinking, I was rarely successful (so never did get to wear the t-shirt that says “Drunk Chicks Dig Me”). Except this one time, found an attractive woman [who seemed pretty drunk] and although she said she was married and had children, left the bar and sat with her in a parked vehicle. Minimal relations occurred, will spare you the detail. The woman then seemed to have an attack of conscience (or was it an attack of my buffalo breath?), and repeated again she was married and kicked me out. I stood mystified before walking away knowing that although adultery wasn’t consummated, it was in my heart. Heinous, but not as bad as those that “13-Step” [take sexual advantage of] AA newcomers, impregnate them, then leave town. Yet it was indicative of my life’s direction and interestingly enough happened around the same time I was fighting for the right to be speaking of being gay in the AA meetings.
I first worked AA’s Twelve Steps in 1985 with a “Big Book thumper” sponsor (someone who works the program strictly by the book). Decided in the Fourth Step regarding sexuality, ”whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow towards it” meant that I was gay. But that was the extent of the ideal. Have you ever attended a gay pride parade? Diversity of sexuality can hardly be a specific ideal. I took it to mean deciding against being a Christian and its confining me to a monogamous marriage and the responsibility of raising children. But an ideal is not bourne through subtraction. So the ensuing years of sobriety involved my living bi-sexually. In fact there were more heterosexual relationships than homosexual, though not very many of either, nor for very long in duration. And since that sponsor kicked me out of the nest, as they say, months after working the 12 Steps with him, the relationship was severed. Where was the spiritual counselor years later to provide guidance, reminding me and saying, ”well, maybe you should be living strictly homosexually (like those in the gay pride parades) as that was your ideal which was part of your spiritual foundation”? But that would be a bit absurd, wouldn’t it?
I remembered AA member Lee in Tucson, who had died of AIDS but not before leaving the gay “lifestyle” (whatever that is), going straight and marrying a beautiful German woman. Explaining his former bi-sexuality, Lee said to me “I wanted it all”. Never, ever has it been stated so clearly the root of my sexual identity struggles. Lee said that in 1992 or 1993. Thus in 1996 I concluded, based on my horrible behaviour, that if it really were God’s will for me to be standing for a cause [gay rights], attempting to prove it moral–God’s will–and experiencing much hardship as a result, then my life should exemplify morality, which it most certainly wasn’t.
So decided then (for the second time) it was one or the other, and chose heterosexuality as God’s will for me. I accepted the more fundamental perspective of Christianity as God’s will for me, even though there is much about biblical fundamentalism disagreed with. But on the sexual identity issue, that is what I’ve done, and it was public as I shared in the AA meetings there in Anchorage of having been wrong to take a stand for gay rights. Not that it is wrong necessarily, gay rights, particularly fighting harassment of gays, etc., but that it was wrong for me to be doing. Political reality demanded a person less conflicted was needed to win the cause.
Although it’s been easy to leave the gay “lifestyle”, there are too many gays that seem predominately homosexual, if not completely, in their desires. Therefore it hasn’t seemed right to argue against homosexuality and insist others have a choice like me. The bible is pretty clear on the issue of homosexuality, though there is enough overall biblical ambiguity that the issue, to me, is not one of certainty. And there is a good enough scientific argument in favor of homosexuality (hypothalumus gland), that I don’t know what my true sexual identity is, but have chosen in faith that it’s heterosexual (although unlike Lee, I’ve not had any relationships since). Similarly, I don’t know Jesus Christ is the one true God. But I have chosen to believe so in faith.
There have been transgressions as a Christian–an outdoor nudist spa in Northern California once in 2002 (after Lyme disease diagnosis I sought comfort through sexual relations–did not have any but received a massage there, which was close enough let me tell you). And around 1999 or 2000 received lap dances in adult nightclubs. And yes, again some coin operated video viewing around same time. These are similar behaviours as before, however, the outlook is different. Before I acted so attempting to believe “it’s all good”. Now when I act so (sin), I see it as that–something to repent from and try not to repeat. And actually the past few years have not had any of those behaviours so maybe I’m doing well. That or the Lyme disease neurological deficits have helped my cause (!).
Here’s a point favoring organized religion, and it has nothing to do with sexual morality. It wasn’t until I became a Christian that I began to give money or material assistance to others. Well, once in a blue moon (before becoming Christian) but it certainly went against the grain for me. I’ve always been tight-fisted with my money. The only exception was my girlfriend in high school–I loved spending money on her. But as far as charity, or altruism as it’s emphasized in AA, forget it. Just didn’t think it wise. But as a religious principle, since becoming Christian, I have more often given others either money or material help out of the religious duty of tithing, or alms giving, like 10% of one’s income, however meager. Not to the American church establishment, but to other poor people when able. Not always, but sometimes, and more often than before being a Christian. For someone as selfish as me, that’s something. So although many like to use the cliche that “Christianity is not a religion but a relationship (with Jesus)”, James 1:27 says: ”Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world”. Based on that, my religion certainly is not pure, but it has brought improvement in areas that most likely would have remained the same.
Alcoholics Anonymous teaches belief in and reliance upon a generic god. Jesus is not mentioned so as not to arouse prejudice amongst the newcomer. Which creates a spiritual foundation devoid of Jesus Christ as Cornerstone. And it is followed by the Fourth Step–a moral inventory. Yet how does one take a moral inventory with no moral belief system? Yes, atheists indeed can be more ethical and better human beings than many Christians, myself included, but how does one take a moral inventory with ambiguous moral beliefs? Though as admitted before, people can make the Bible to mean anything they want it to. A point re-iterated to us students by the founder of Alaska Bible Institute in Homer, Alaska. The difference is there are set moral beliefs to follow in the bible, but AA does not provide them. Specifically of course referring to the sexual inventory. “Whatever our ideal turns out to be we must be willing to grow towards it”. But where does that ideal come from when the Third Step has put one on a path of universalism?
It was a bit zealous of me to write in the Christianity Today letter of February 2001 that AA is not a bridge to Jesus but rather a bridge to Babylon. But AA, through trying to be all-inclusive, lost the solution which is Jesus. AA co-founder Bill W., when asked what he credited with the source for change in people’s lives in Alcoholics Anonymous, pointed to a picture of Gethsemene on the wall and said “there it is” (paraphrasing pgs. 216-217 AA Big Book 3rd Edition). And an early member described in his story in the Big Book that Dr. Bob always emphasized the religious angle very strongly when working with others (paraphrase; BB; p.292). But that was not AA as presented to me in 1985 nor to this present time. It seems the message was lost through the Twelve Traditions especially, as Bill W. wanted to help alcoholics worldwide and figured the exclusive teachings of Jesus would never fly. So in effect, the solution to the alcohol problem instead has become teaching reliance upon the AA Group (which lacks the actual solution) through the 12 Traditions.
Finally, the blacklisting and persecution has caused my homelessness for the past nine years. Lyme disease, contracted due to being homeless sleeping in the woods (Santa Rosa, CA.), has simply exacerbated it. And explains why I can no longer work construction labor, or day labor. Much of it may well be due to the knowledge of my being a weak person, vulnerable to harm by these blood-thirsty demons. Whether it’s been conservative AA members in Anchorage mocking me in defeat saying the program is “what you make of it” (thus it’s the individual’s fault not AA). Or liberal members in a Seattle meeting [2007] mocking me for being a homeless Christian 22 years sober (he doesn’t have anything I want, etc.).
Kind of funny in a way, but at that meeting in Seattle I’d had a homeless appearance what with wearing shorts and woolen grey long johns underneath [during winter]. The sort that, being too long, get all bunched up between the knees and ankles. Kind of like Olivia Newton John’s leggings in the 1980’s video ‘Lets Get Physical’. I’d had a seizure coming on before that meeting so sat blank faced like ‘The Idiot’ Prince Myshkin (Dostoyevsky) throughout members shares ridiculing me. They knew who I was and took the opportunity to abuse me. But of course it was their persecution over the years that had put me in that position. And most specifically, not only due to questioning AA’s teachings, but having changed from a universalist to a Christian.
But would add that, similar to the exploitation surrounding the lawsuit, the persecution is probably motivated by competitive capitalism as well. Eugenics, here to mean the weak and poor are considered an unnecesary burden on society, is no doubt involved in not only my life being devalued, but so many others as well. In a society where, as Ivan put it in Dostoyevsky’s ‘The Brothers Karamazov’ (although he referred to his brother and father) “…one reptile will devour the other“, Herbert Spencer would be proud.
“Whether true or false, what is said about men often has as much influence on their lives, and particularly on their destinies, as what they do.” ‘Les Miserables’, page 1, by Victor Hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
Additional comments:
Franz Kafka wrote on themes involving persecution/alienation and how humans invent their own struggles. Kafka’s themes bring to mind Dostoyevsky’s character in ‘The Double’, wherein he is portrayed incurring social backlash for his actions but quotes biblical passages to himself in consolation of being persecuted by his enemies. It’s very funny. However, in the case of Kafka, it seems good to keep in mind that his sister reportedly died in an Auschwitz death camp, so clearly her struggle was not self-imposed. It involved other people acting evilly towards others, through no fault of the victims involved. I think it serves the persecutors to use the idea that one has created their own struggles, that is to say it is the victims fault, as a central aspect of persecution.
Another example is Emmet Fox in ‘The Sermon on the Mount’, (Chapter 1 or 2?), using the Old Testament proverb–If a man’s ways are right with God he will make even his enemies be at peace with him–to say the Christian martyrs were at fault for their own martyrdom since they failed to love their enemies sufficiently [Sermon on the Mount; love thy enemies]. Quite a spin, but it does show the OT proverb is not absolute. Two examples: Jesus’ ways were right with God (perfection), yet He never was nor never will be at peace with His enemies (Revelations; Jesus’ return). And again, Kafka’s sister dying in a death camp; such was not due to the fault of the persecuted, it was due to human evil being imposed on its victims.
Early members of Alcoholics Anonymous passed out copies of Emmet Fox’ ‘Sermon on the Mount’ to newcomers before the printing of its main text ‘Alcoholics Anonymous’. Thus the teaching is found within AA’s Big Book: “So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves….”. Which makes for a key ingredient in a recipe for abusive dynamics, be that in personal sponsor/sponsee relationships or on the AA group level.
This verse was amongst those referred to in a recent Reno Gazette Journal letter holding OT verses up to ridicule. Granted the others they referred to didn’t make sense unless when reading the KJV study version that explains them, but the good part is it motivated me to read the verses, and I found this one that contradicts AA’s teaching:
“Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad;…”
Ezekial 13:22
flag this »July 17, 2008 - 5:55pm | markissakuno
primary purpose
The primary purpose of AA is to help the alcoholic who still suffers. The best way to do this is to share your experience, strength and hope concerning your alcoholism. Your sexual orientation has nothing to do with alcoholism. If there is a newcomer in the room and all he hears in a discussion meeting is some idiot like you arguing that you should be able to whine about being a homo, chances are he will leave that meeting without hearing the solution. Then he will die.
It sounds like you need recovery from feelings of persecution. Perhaps if you accept your homosexuality and quit hating on yourself, you too can recover from your alcoholism and participate in AA by sharing your ESH concerning your alcoholism, not your sexual orientation!
~An active member of AA
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 7:50am | Azorka
Thank you...
...the belligerence of your post proves the point. AA members are more often motivated by hate than love and tolerance.
Please see thread "King of the metrosexuals" for more on, not only acceptance of my sexuality, but celebration. lol
flag this »5 July 14, 2008 - 4:07pm | Emperor
We need a new...
...treatment for those abuse Alcohol. Prescribe marijuana.
You would be amazed the number of lives and families that have been saved. No more violence in the home, no more DUI's, no more being fired for being late or showing up drunk or hangover.
The idea that alcoholism is a disease is ridiculous. Is habitual abuse of any other drug a "disease"?
flag this »July 17, 2008 - 6:06pm | markissakuno
Alcoholism is a disease of
Alcoholism is a disease of the mind and body. Unless you have experienced it, you cannot relate. The disease is a phenomenon of craving that the social drinker cannot comprehend. Once an alcoholic gives in to the craving and takes a drink, he cannot stop. Nothing else matters but getting the next drink. There is a solution in the rooms of AA if you are willing to have an open mind and take some helpful suggestions. It is not a cult, we do not discriminate against no one. If you find yourself at a meeting where people are whining and complaining about life,or hating on you because you are gay or perceive yourself to be unique, that is not what AA is supposed to be. Ask someone if there is a "solutions oriented" meeting nearby where you can become an active member in your own recovery! Quit bashing something you know nothing about, you dorknuffas!
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 10:28am | Azorka
Namecalling is incongruent with love and tolerance
"It is not a cult, we do not discriminate against no one. If you find yourself at a meeting where people are whining and complaining about life,or hating on you because you are gay or perceive yourself to be unique, that is not what AA is supposed to be. Ask someone if there is a "solutions oriented" meeting nearby where you can become an active member in your own recovery! Quit bashing something you know nothing about, you dorknuffas!":
"that is not what AA is supposed to be": Right. It's suppose to be about love and tolerance, unconditional love, etc., which your namecalling demonstrates is nothing but empty idealism. AA portends many things; it practices quite another.
flag this »July 17, 2008 - 8:27pm | Emperor
With all due respect...
...to everyone that is, has or will have to battle addictions I encourage you to keep fighting. If you fall down, get up and keep going. If you need help, reach out. There are plenty of people that can and will help. You're not alone.
If it works, it works.
If calling it a disease helps, then call it a disease.
flag this »July 14, 2008 - 4:19pm | Azorka
I wouldn't be able to go
I wouldn't be able to go with that one. For further explanation see:
www.azorka.wordpress.com
and the chapter on marijuana (the one with the George Benson 'White Rabbit' music sample).
BTW, it describes how Ritalin is the real "gateway drug".
flag this »July 14, 2008 - 6:31pm | Emperor
I'm speaking from...
...personal observation. I don't really care about opinions and studies.
There is no such thing as a "gateway" drug. What happens is when you're forced into purchasing from dealers, you are exposed to other harsher drugs. Why isn't alcohol a "gateway" drug? Because it's purchased legally.
As for "Ritalin" and other kiddie downers, those drugs are for parents that can't and won't parent. Typically these parents give up before their child is even a year old. Then instead of admitting they are lousy parents, they begin shopping around looking for an excuse like "ADD" to drug up their kids.
flag this »July 15, 2008 - 8:02am | shawnterachelle
You don't care about studies?
Studies are observations too. They just happen to be scientifically validated with proof and such.
So you're willing to ignore biological evidence of ADD because you'd rather blame the parents? You're willing to ignore scientific data on the concepts of tolerance (physiological), dependence (physiological), and neuronal changes in the brain (physiological) because you want to believe that drug and alcohol addiction is not a disease? Why? Is it because you think calling it a disease makes the person not responsible for their choices? That's the most common reason people don't like it being called a disease. But, those same people don't understand that it's not about shirking personal responsibility. It's about recognizing that physiological changes in fact occur in the body in response to prolonged drug and alcohol abuse. Which directly affects the treatment required to stay clean. Yes, choices are involved. Yes, personal responsibility is involved. And yes, physiological changes are involved as well.
flag this »July 15, 2008 - 6:24pm | Emperor
No, I don't care about studies.
It's about individuals. Some people can't drink a single beer without feeling the affects serious enough not to drive. Some people can drink 12 beers (over a period of 6 hours) and they would barely feel the effects and would not be too impaired to drive. Some people turn into absolute jerks when they are drunk, others just get silly and go to sleep. How is any study going to reflect those extremes? How do you explain the guy that drinks and smokes every day since the age of 16 until he dies in his sleep at 90?
The same things can be said about all drugs, prescription and non-prescriptions including marijuana. It's also true about foods, some people can eat as much as they want, anything they want and they don't gain a pound. Some people can just walk past a donut and gain a pound. Some "study" gave us the ridiculous height/weight ratio that we use to determine if someone is under or over weight. Wouldn't the opposite be true as well? Over or Under Height? "No doctor, I'm not too fat, I'm too short."
There are all kinds of things that cause physiological changes in people including the weather, foods, music, the sound of someone's voice, the warm touch of a hand or petting an animal to name a few.
I believe that some people can become addicted to all sorts of things (including chocolate) that causes physiological changes, but that doesn't mean its a disease.
As for ADD, I would guestimate only about one out of a hundred children "diagnosed" with ADD actually have a chemical problem. The rest have parents that are Dr. Spock disciples who believe a "time out" is an effective disciplinary measure. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience. I've seen it first hand where kids were supposedly "out of control" and medication was recommended by the school nurse. Those same kids would spend time with me without their parents and would behave just fine - that is until their parent returns who also thought they needed to drug their child.
It's the "studies" that set the norms for the average, or range, that fail to take into account the individual. Group therapy is an extension of this attitude that everyone is affected the same and reacts the same.
I had myself convinced that I would never be able to quit smoking, that it would be just too hard on me and on those around me. But after 30 years of two plus packs a day, I quit cold turkey. I didn't consider it difficult at all. People around me didn't think I was any worse than normal. Is that the norm? Absolutely not, I know many many people that struggle to quit smoking using everything and anything they can to help. Coffee is the one that would give me the most problems quitting. Nobody wants to be around me in the morning until after at least my first cup coffee. I get serious headaches within hours of not having my caffeine "fix". That's physiological as well, but it still doesn't rise to the level of disease.
I think treating individuals as individuals rather than as part of some statistical group with some cookie-cutter treatment regimen will go much further in helping people. I think telling them they have a "disease" gives them an excuse if they fail, and no credit for changing their behavior.
flag this »July 16, 2008 - 7:43am | shawnterachelle
I agree
that it's about individuals. However, in order to be able to treat individuals for specific disorders, there needs to be studies done to generalize those extremes you pointed out. So, studies are not as moot as you would pose. There would be no way to account for every imaginable exception to each disorder out there.
I liked that you pointed out the different things which cause physiological changes in people. However, there is a difference between those changes and the ones brought on by drugs and alcohol. Those changes (from someone's voice, etc.) are not debilitating, nor do they cause people to lose their ability to make postive choices. Listening to Mozart causes changes in the brain, but they are "good" changes with more neuronal growth and such. Smoking crack everyday, on the other hand, limits neuronal growth in the brain and shuts down neurotransmitter receptor sites. So there's a big difference.
I understand your argument here, and I agree to an extent. I agree that we do not need cookie-cutter treatments or glorified pill pushers (some psychiatrists) in order to help them. I don't think, however, that telling people its a disease gives them an excuse if they fail. Some may take it that way, which tells me they weren't ready to quit in the first place. But most don't.
Congratulations on quitting smoking though!
flag this »July 16, 2008 - 10:30am | Emperor
No matter what it's called.
I was talking to a friend last night about our exchange here, and she made some very good points.
1) She reminded me that the people I've been talking about are friends, family and others that have come into my life one way or another. That's quite different than a clinical setting where the counselor has little if any information about the individuals circumstances, background or the dynamics of their life.
2) The people that I'm talking about know more about me than they would about a counselor. There is a level of trust that is only possible through a shared history and time.
3) My friends success in changing their behavior is done under different conditions than in a clinical setting.
Bottom line she says, "what works, works" and that's all that really matters. If AA works for someone, that's great. If drug treatment works for someone that's great too. If group therapy, light therapy, color therapy, aroma therapy or anything else works, all that matters is that it works for the individual seeking to modify their behavior. And really, that's all we are talking about here, behavior modification. It doesn't matter if it's an out of control 6 year old, or the drunk hitting bottom. Whatever works, works to change undesirable behavior.
The important thing is for people to seek help before their behavior destroys their lives and their families. What's important is that people around them that care, should reach out and try to help, if only to encourage them to go to treatment. Then be there for them as they struggle with getting well again. We also have to understand that not everyone can be saved from their own self destruction. I've lost friends to alcohol and drugs that neither I nor anyone else could help, because they weren't able or willing to help themselves.
Thanks for the exchange, I learned a little more about myself, which is always a good thing.
flag this »July 16, 2008 - 11:28am | shawnterachelle
"What works, works"
I wholeheartedly agree. The hard part is finding what works. Often it takes several tries until it's found.
I'm glad you pointed out the difference in the personal relationship vs. the clinical relationship and the personal setting vs. clinical setting. I hadn't even thought about that aspect of it. Which is odd because I too have family and friends struggling with addictions. Some get help and quit, others (like my grandfather) died because they were never able to find what worked for them.
It can be frustrating in a clinical setting though, when the patient/client believes I have the magical answer for them and they don't need to do any work to change their behavior. I agree with you on that aspect as well, that we're talking about behavior modification.
Families and friends play a larger part in helping someone get clean than most would believe, and I'm glad you pointed that out too.
Thank you for the exchange as well. It's refreshing to have ones like this, as they are pretty few and far between.
flag this »July 16, 2008 - 12:25pm | Azorka
The point of this forum...
....is not that AA doesn't work for some, but the harmful dynamics therein. The criticism is well founded, and should be must reading for any AA member to have a thorough comprehension of the program they're involved in. "Orange" has a new vidoe coming out where (AA co-founder) Dr. Bob's daughter likens AA to a cult. I'm looking forward to it.
flag this »July 16, 2008 - 5:48pm | Emperor
The point?
The point is that no matter how many lengthy posts on the matter you make, the truth of it all is that AA has helped more people than it has harmed.
Can you say the same thing about Religion?
I've been to a couple of meetings to see what it was really like. I read the story of Bill W. Yes the "higher power" thing runs throughout. But... If it works, it works.
flag this »July 17, 2008 - 10:48am | Azorka
As Orange points out...
...somewhere on their site (www.orange-papers.org), AA is simply in the early stages of becoming an established religion. My fault for not having the exact quote/reference. I just read it the other day and should have cut/paste it to save.
And when there is so much falsehood with its foundation as so clearly shown, then the harm it is causing will increase proportionately. And Orange argues AA doesn't work. I hadn't known that, but he provides very convincing argument.
For example, I just read over on "blamethenile" post (under one of their videos criticizing AA) that:
"After one year, 95% of all attendees have quit attending, year in, year out. (M)"
flag this »July 17, 2008 - 11:21am | shawnterachelle
The early stages of becoming a religion?
It was founded over 50 years ago....wouldn't it have happened already? And how could it become a religion if 95% of people quit attending? Also, how could it become a religion if they don't pander to any specific belief system other than the 12-steps?
This Orange person/organization sounds pretty bogus to me. "And Orange says AA doesn't work." Talk to individual members of AA who rely on the group for their support to stay clean. Talk to individual members who were only able to find comfort through going to those meetings night after night. Talk to individual members who made lasting, mutually-supportive friendships through going to these meetings. Talk to individual members who were able to find a life of spirituality through going to these meetings. THEN tell me AA doesn't work. THAT'S where the REAL information is, in the individuals.
Also, each meeting is different. Every single one is different. Group dynamics change depending on who attends. If you have a bunch of dry drunk court-ordered assholes, yeah, the meetings will suck. If you have a bunch of old-timers who think their way is the only way, yeah, it will suck. If you have a bunch of sincere people who want to quit drinking, it will be a good meeting. IT ALL DEPENDS. So, making blanket statements about AA is ludacris. Another thing to consider: you only get out of something what you put into it.
flag this »July 17, 2008 - 12:38pm | Azorka
You misquoted me...
When you wrote "And Orange says AA doesn't work." I wrote "And Orange argues AA doesn't work." Big difference, as I implied Orange has the thoroughness to debate the issue with a tremendous amount of facts as he cites AA approved literature, etc. I can to but nearly so thoroughly. I usually share my personal (anecdotal) experience (cut/paste from my website www.azorka.wordpress.com), and cite the 12X12 as that is where much of the group cult dynamics are found.
"Talk to individual members of AA who rely on the group for their support to stay clean. Talk to individual members who were only able to find comfort through going to those meetings night after night. Talk to individual members who made lasting, mutually-supportive friendships through going to these meetings. Talk to individual members who were able to find a life of spirituality through going to these meetings. THEN tell me AA doesn't work. THAT'S where the REAL information is, in the individuals.":
Talk to me. AA helped me in many ways. I say that freely. What this thread is about is addressing the harm AA causes, and it's potential harm. This thread does not deny AA is helpful in some ways.
"Also, each meeting is different. Every single one is different. Group dynamics change depending on who attends. If you have a bunch of dry drunk court-ordered assholes, yeah, the meetings will suck. If you have a bunch of old-timers who think their way is the only way, yeah, it will suck. If you have a bunch of sincere people who want to quit drinking, it will be a good meeting. IT ALL DEPENDS. So, making blanket statements about AA is ludacris. Another thing to consider: you only get out of something what you put into it.":
You raise an inteersting point. And that is court-ordered AA. I once was secretary of an AA meeting. Realized out of about 25 people there, 5 were not court-ordered. Changes the entire dynamics of the meeting. And for me to be in a position of a violent offender *using* me as a sponsor so I would sign a paper stating that for his parole officer. Which later endangered me when he requested again I sign a form for his parole officer and I said "no. I haven't been sponsoring you. I haven't seen you in over two months. You've never called." That guy stalked me outside the meetings in downtown scaramento he was so enraged. Steroids most likely. Weight lifter. Anyhow, I got by, but wondered who exactly put me in that position? Why does AA cooperate in such a way to make an AA member judge, jury, and jailer?
As for blanket statements: "you only get out of something what you put into it.", that's what that is. A blanket statement that blames the individual for not putting enough into the program. I put plenty in, I was coffeemaker, secretary, GSR, Alt. DCM, PI/CPC rep, Corrections Coordinator, etc. Heavily involved in AA service. That didn't stop the abuse I experienced, the cult dynamics addressed in this thread.
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 8:27am | shawnterachelle
Sorry
for misquoting.
In the program I work for, we have people that are court ordered for treatment. Part of the requirements for our program is they attend AA and NA meetings. So, that's where I got the court ordered part. I have never heard of a judge ordering a person to attend meetings. Not in my community anyway.
As for the "you only get out of something what you put in", I was referring to attitude, open-mindedness, honesty, humility, etc. I didn't mean volunteering for various activities and sponsorship.
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 9:05am | Azorka
Court ordered....
....continues even though AA has been proven to be a religious program. Re; getting something out of what you out in...I don't know what you are saying. How does one "put in" attitude, etc. Where do you put that in? Those are principles one might practice and derive good from, but I don't see it negating abusiveness which occurs in AA. One can practice those things and still be abused.
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 9:37am | shawnterachelle
Ok
If you have a negative attitude, a closed mind, etc. you aren't going to get anything out of anything. So, the "putting in" would be effort. Effort to be open minded, honest, humble and with a positive attitude. I didn't mean you could use those efforts to negate abuse in meetings. Yes, you can still be abused while practicing those things, but perhaps it would be easier to rise above the abuse? Also, you're less likely to use said abuse as an excuse to relapse.
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 10:14am | Azorka
Agreed....
....however, re: "Yes, you can still be abused while practicing those things, but perhaps it would be easier to rise above the abuse? Also, you're less likely to use said abuse as an excuse to relapse.":
Why be in an abusive program when the abuse is incongruent with sobriety? Why place oneself amongst abusers, over and over and over again?
As for court ordered, this from www.orange-papers.org:
In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit Court ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
-- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:
the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
The Federal Appeals Court in Hawaii, September 7, 2007, in the Inouye v. Kemna case.
The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to those rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By letting them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the Griffin v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996, was heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained that state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described atheist with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for expanded family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would have to attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-Step model.2
Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in Ulster County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-Step approach requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of church and state.
Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest court, the New York Court of Appeals.
In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's majority, concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a religious belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several profiles of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the AA Twelve and Twelve.
Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary objective of A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming happily and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic beliefs."
From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA Twelve Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is dedicated to converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity. Accordingly, the court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-Step methodology, adherence to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence of God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the Universe."
When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the atheist convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to link extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated separation of church and state.3
On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous meetings end immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the states of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
Legally, Alcoholics Anonymous is established as a religious organization. And so is Narcotics Anonymous. Lawyers and judges now consider the issue "a moot point", one that is so thoroughly established that they will not argue the point again. They just accept it as a given.
Then, for a recent legal kicker, on July 31, 2001, United States District Court Judge Charles Brieant overturned the manslaughter conviction of Paul Cox because Cox had "shared" his memories of two murders with other Alcoholics Anonymous members at an A.A. meeting, and then one of those members turned him in. And at the trial, other A.A. members were subpoenaed and forced to testify against Cox.
The District Court Judge ruled that Cox's confession at the A.A. meeting was protected and inadmissible evidence, just like Catholics' confessions to their priests are protected and inadmissible in court. Judge Brieant cited a 1999 federal appeals court declaration that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion. And then the judge threw out the conviction because it was based on inadmissible evidence.
As far as the courts of the USA are concerned, Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous are, beyond a doubt, organizations that engage in religious activities. And their meetings qualify as religious services. It's a done deal. Nobody denies it but Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, and the other 12-Step groups.
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 12:37pm | t_ysarren
you have been posting now about various...
subjects concerning you. You sound like a bright, educated, knowledgable person. Why are you out of work? Working would not only provide you with a means and maybe healthcare but provide a feeling of usefulness and and self-sufficiency. You sound young enough yet to do something-time is running out. If you are unable to work due to health concerns, there are ways to get disability, provided you can provide legitimate need. All I see here is you blaming everyone and every agency for the condition(s) you are in, that is counter-productive and is steering you towards a relapse towards drug/alcohol abuse. If you do fall back in, please do not blame us for not trying to help you. It's you that has to make a move in helping yourself, goodness knows there are enough helps out there if you sincerely want to turn yourself around. Sounding out is a cry for help...what's next? We don't want to hear bad news about you. Be good to yourself and love yourself and others. Never mind what agencies can or cannot do for you, ultimately its up to you. You sound very intelligent, you just gotta act intelligent about your situation(s). Godspeed.
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 3:52pm | Azorka
But you say nothing of societal neglect....
....you are quite adept at ad hominem. Now why not write again and address societal neglect of the homeless. See my letter to Seattle City Council (near top) and section on homelessness further down below it on my site:
www.azorka.wordpress.com
If you don't want to go there, let me know, I'll get it for you and cut/paste it here.
flag this »July 18, 2008 - 7:20pm | t_ysarren
I will say this...you are the king of steering away any...
kind of advice that would help you. Maybe that's what got you into trouble in the first place, you didn't listen...period. You reap what you sow, man. Case closed.
flag this »July 19, 2008 - 9:18am | Azorka
Personal Responsibility vs. Societal Neglect
Okay, figured you would once again try and lay the bblame on me. So I've gone and cut/paste the following from my website (so hopefully when you said "case closed" that was not your mind you were referring to) [www.azorka.wordpress.com]:
The Colorado Daily News titled my 2005 letter ’Where is Our Decency?’:
http://coloradodaily.com/articles/2005/10/19/opinion/letters/letters1.txt
This is my 2007 E-mail to Seattle City Council....:
Seattle City Council January 9, 2007
This is to request the Seattle City Council edit the Seattle Police
Department’s statement ‘Please do not encourage or reward panhandling’
from the City’s web page Safety Tips for Visitors & Tourists.
The Downtown Partnership’s 2007 anti-panhandling campaign increases the
economic sanctioning of socio-economic outcasts (see: ‘Choking Off
Panhandlers’; Seattle P.I.; 12/26/06). Yet some of these outcasts may
simply be a result of the denial of medical treatment due to cost
(chronic diseases), organizational charity theft through extravagant
non-profit CEO salaries, and a woefully inadequate tax and transfer
system.
Specifically: The U.S. ranks first in amount of healthcare spending per
person yet 37th in healthcare performance (World Health Organization
[France: 8th spending, 1st performance]). Of all industrialized countries
listed, we are second-to-last in disabled persons earning capacity (annex
to Society-at-a-Glance 2002). And editorialist Nicholas Kristoff, citing
the CIA World Fact book ranking the U.S. 42nd in infant mortality,
laments it is a “national disgrace…that the average baby is less likely
to survive in the U.S. than in Bejing or Havana” (New York Times;
1/12/05).
Meanwhile, the National Institutes of Health said rules designed to
reduce conflicts of interest at the agency went too far. So instead of
barring thousands of employees from owning stock in pharmaceutical and
biotechnology companies, only about 200 senior employees will be
affected (’NIH Revises Ethics Rule on Stock Ownership’; USA Today;
8/26/05).
And according to Dr. Kenneth Liegner’s testimony before the New
York State Assembly Committee on Health (11/27/01), a 7-year-old Lyme
disease patient was kept alive on expensive medication until, due to
insurance company policy, “she died within one month of cessation of
intravenous antibiotic treatment.” A 7-year-old child allowed to die due
to cost.
Liegner adds, “Metropolitan Life Insurance Company had an
important formative role in the creation of the National Institutes of
Health. This raises the issue of possible ongoing undue influence of the
insurance industry in setting national health priorities.” But as the
U.S. is the only industrialized country with no pharmaceutical price cap,
and NIH scientists contract out to pharmaceutical companies, it’s not
only insurance companies influencing public health policy.
Moreover, the non-profit Universal Health Services CEO made $16.2 million
dollars in 2003 (USA Today; 9/30/2004). Non-profit funds are procured
under the guise of altruism but become organizational charity theft when
used for extravagant salaries. The reasoning is that such salaries are
necessary to attract leading professionals within a competitive system.
But that is to say the economy demands we act as pigs with charity
money, a most terrible commentary on America.
Finally, according to intellectual Noam Chomsky, not only does the U.S. have
the most homelessness but “In fact, we always hear in the media and from
politicians how there’s so much welfare for the poor in the United
States, but the reality is that the United States is completely off the
international spectrum in this respect–we give far less than any
industrialized country.”
More specifically: “…the U.S. tax and transfer
system creates a 28.5 percent reduction in the poverty rate, whereas the
tax and transfer systems in all other industrialized countries decrease
poverty rates by between 60 and 80 percent, the only exceptions being
Britain, Australia and Canada, whose tax and transfer programs still
reduce poverty rates by approximately 50 percent” (’Understanding Power:
The Indispensable Chomsky’; Page 370 [Chapter 10 footnote #28;
www.understandingpower.com]).
Panhandling is discouraged and prohibited in spite of Seattle’s own
‘Looking Homeward: The 10 Year Plan to End Homelessness’. What would lame
beggar Lazarus do (Luke 16:19-31) until the coming of a new Chautauqua 10
years hence? In many places throughout the U.S., he would be thrown in
jail for panhandling and sleeping in a businessmen’s doorway. Let Seattle
reverse the trend of sanctioning America’s poor through anti-panhandling
propaganda and legislation. Removing the Seattle Police Department’s
harmful statement would be a good start.
flag this »July 19, 2008 - 9:51am | t_ysarren
if you think society will all of a sudden reverse itself...
just to help you overcome your personal demons..think again. Hasn't helped anyone yet and won't. For physical ailments, go see a doctor. For mental help. so see a mental health professional. For spiritural help, so see a pastor, reverend, priest, bishop..what ever your choice is. If you have no money to go see some of these, get a job with health benefits, you're smart or at least you sound smart and you sound young, young enough to still make a difference in your life. If you don't want to, you won't. If you want to, you will. Godspeed.
flag this »July 19, 2008 - 11:49am | Azorka
You're stuck on...
...ad hominem. Attacking the person, criticizing the individual instead of addressing the issues raised. None of those suggestions you wrote are original. They're the usual resources sought for gaining help but they fail. Noam Chomsky cites how they fail. Howard Zinn cites how they fail. Etc.
"If you don't want to, you won't. If you want to, you will.": The system works; it's up to the individual; personal responsibility. That's your belief but it isn't true. Specifically to this thread as AA cult involvement, i.e., blacklisting, has its effect.
flag this »July 19, 2008 - 12:30pm | t_ysarren
if trying to help is attacking you..geez...
you are a lost cause then.
flag this »